Thanks Russell
I appreciate your research. (I'm assuming you are sending these data to me and not my brother, the "other" Kinnaird.)
John
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| Author: | John Kinnaird [ Fri Jul 08, 2005 12:02 pm ] |
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I just got a collection of heart pine beams that are pretty old. The grain count is about 50 to the inch. The beams are very musical (they just ring when struck) and it just seems like there should be a good use for the wood building guitars. I was thinking either tops or perhaps back and sides. Anybody have any experience or hear of anyone using heart pine for guitar construction? |
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| Author: | Don Williams [ Fri Jul 08, 2005 12:05 pm ] |
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I've heard some folks say that just about any conifer could be used if the particular piece of wood had the right characteristics, and that there is a lot of variation with species, and for tha matter within a single tree. If you can get some good, ringing, stiff pieces from it, why not try it? |
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| Author: | Josh H [ Fri Jul 08, 2005 1:34 pm ] |
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A friend of mine has done some work with white pine tops. You can see a guitar and mandolin in his photo gallery on the web site (go to the bottom of the page). I have played both instruments and they sounded great! If you have some nice pine I would give it a try. This is my friends site. http://home.golden.net/~steved/ Josh |
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| Author: | John Kinnaird [ Fri Jul 08, 2005 9:28 pm ] |
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For sure using pine for tops would not inspire the traditional crowd into laying down money for the instrument. It would have to be a prototype spec guitar. Didn't Stradavarious use pine for the tops of some of his violins, or was that just an old name for spruce. |
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| Author: | RussellR [ Fri Jul 08, 2005 9:43 pm ] |
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HI Steve In Europe Alpine Spruce is sometimes known as Swiss Pine. I am not sure if this definition is correct but people do use the names for the same wood. |
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| Author: | RussellR [ Fri Jul 08, 2005 9:46 pm ] |
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Steve I found this quote on a violin makers site The tonewood traditionally used for violin fronts is ‘Swiss Pine’. The botanical name is ‘Picea Abies’ or ‘Picea excelsa’, common&nb sp; names: Norway spruce, Silver spruce or European spruce Hope this helps |
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| Author: | John Kinnaird [ Fri Jul 08, 2005 10:19 pm ] |
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Thanks Russell I appreciate your research. (I'm assuming you are sending these data to me and not my brother, the "other" Kinnaird.)
John |
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| Author: | RussellR [ Fri Jul 08, 2005 10:24 pm ] |
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John Sorry I just saw the surname and had got it in to my head it was Steve. My apologies Russell |
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| Author: | CarltonM [ Sat Jul 09, 2005 2:33 am ] |
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[QUOTE=John Kinnaird] For sure using pine for tops would not inspire the traditional crowd into laying down money for the instrument. It would have to be a prototype spec guitar.[/QUOTE] John, "Tradition" is changing fast in the guitar world. If you've got some prime tonewood with 50 gpi, I'd say you're golden. I'd suggest you try some tints as an experiment to tone down those orange-y pine growth rings, build one of your great guitars with it, and amaze the world! Carlton |
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| Author: | stan thomison [ Sat Jul 09, 2005 3:22 am ] |
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John I would use it. Your a really, really good builder and will know to get the best sound out of it with good prep work in the bracing and sanding. I don't know about tradition, but I bet some woods now considered traditional would not have been so at one time. Each time a particular wood becomes way expensive due to limited availability, another wood sprouts up and is a great wood to become a traditional wood later (just a thought or opinion but no facts to back it up) I have the preveledge to work with great wood every day a Bourgeois. From listening to guys, more woods are being considered and used. I know Dana stick pretty much to Addy and then Sitka then the others, but always considers what some other species may sound like. I think from what you describe, this will make great guitars, I bet there will be always a market for your work, whatever you make it with, you have earned your great rep with your great work that speaks for itself |
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| Author: | RussellR [ Sat Jul 09, 2005 3:38 am ] |
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John The Swiss Pine/European is in my opinion one of the best top woods there is, so there is no reason that others from similiar species should not perform excellantly, so I would go for it to0. |
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| Author: | John Kinnaird [ Sat Jul 09, 2005 3:43 am ] |
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Russell I don't know how similar this heart pine is to the Swiss pine. I'm pretty sure it is a different species and nearly as sure the genus is different as well. The heart pine, Pinus sometingus, is just hard and heavy. One of those planks felt like it was made out of lead. No kidding it really seemed to be as dense as rosewood. I am thinking about back and sides. That would be very strange, but it is such pretty wood and so musical. |
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| Author: | RussellR [ Sat Jul 09, 2005 3:50 am ] |
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HI John I see what you are saying, the swiss is really light, if the pine you have is very dense, then it may not make a great soundboard, I have been making a fair bit of stuff with back and sides out of alot of native fruitwoods and had some great sucess with it, I find most customers respond well to the unusual, as long as the sound is good. I think as many of the exotics become rarer we will have to find alternatives, if you have the time I would do the experiment. My experience is that you are often plesently suprised. |
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| Author: | John B [ Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:01 am ] |
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Michael Dunn works with fir tops. Maybe you just need a good story to go with the guitar. |
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| Author: | Jerry Hossom [ Sat Jul 09, 2005 6:58 am ] |
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That might be old growth yellow pine, the heartwood of which is one of the hardest I've even seen. An amazing wood. Don't know about its acoustic qualities though. |
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| Author: | Alan Carruth [ Sat Jul 09, 2005 11:24 am ] |
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John: There are some easy tests you can do to get some idea about the suitability of that wood for soundboards. It's handy to check out a top blank when you've got one, but testing can also be done (and might be more accurate) using small strips cut along and across the grain (think of pieces you might trim off the end and side of the blank). You'll need an accurate scale in the appropriate range, a way to measure the size of the piece to reasonable tolerance, some means to set it vibrating, and something that can 'hear' that vibration and tell you how strong it is. There's a little math involved, but it's not bad. I'd be happy to help you get started. |
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| Author: | John Kinnaird [ Sat Jul 09, 2005 1:06 pm ] |
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Al that sounds very interesting. I was a physics teacher in a prior lifetime so the math does not scare me. I would appreciate you passing on some of your experience. John |
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| Author: | Alan Carruth [ Sun Jul 10, 2005 12:31 pm ] |
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Should we do this on the QT by e-mail, or would others on the list like to sit in? |
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| Author: | Don Williams [ Sun Jul 10, 2005 12:52 pm ] |
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Please do this here! Thanks Al! |
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| Author: | Shawn [ Sun Jul 10, 2005 12:52 pm ] |
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I would like to hear the discussion and any results. I have built with alot of different woods that are not mainstream tonewoods such as King William Pine (Tasmanian), Larch (Tamarack), White Spruce, Black Spruce, Douglas Fir and Hemlock and think that there are alot of interesting alternatives that may not have the qualities of a Sitka or Western Red Cedar, but would be interesting for a custom or experimental guitar. Theoretically if it is old growth southern yellow pine it would be very dense and have a good tap tone although not as light as Adirondack so it may not have the same sustain as a less resinous species. |
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| Author: | Steve Kinnaird [ Sun Jul 10, 2005 1:13 pm ] |
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Bro---I want summmmm. |
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| Author: | John Kinnaird [ Sun Jul 10, 2005 1:56 pm ] |
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Al Lets do it here. I'm pretty sure there would be enough interest to warrant wider exposure. John |
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| Author: | John Kinnaird [ Sun Jul 10, 2005 1:56 pm ] |
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[QUOTE=Steve Kinnaird] Bro---I want summmmm.[/QUOTE] OK |
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| Author: | Colin S [ Sun Jul 10, 2005 8:01 pm ] |
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John, We have a saying in England, I don't know if you have it on your side of the pond, "If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is a duck". So for your pine I'd say blow tradition, if it flexes like a top and taps like a top it is a top. Colin |
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| Author: | John Kinnaird [ Sun Jul 10, 2005 9:37 pm ] |
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I have not been keeping up very well and this is probably old news. |
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